which four shielded coin is this?

Dear,

I found this one.
So far I could not find which coin this is






one side I can see 4 shields
left and right i think a lion, the shield on top has at least two crosses.
shield botton, I don't know.
On the right maybe ERE ? ERF ?



the other side:



I think at the top there is "NEC * ME" (or NEO * M?) not sure though.

When I was searching I was looking at https://www.atmikes.be/index.php/16de-eeuw/1266-karel-v-rekenpenning-voor-de-raadgevers-van-zijne-majesteit-z-j-ca-1545-1555
The cross (dutch: "bourgondisch kruis"?) and the "vuurslag" (don't know the english translation, "fire creating tool"?) look very similar to the coin of Karel V at atmikes.be but can't find anything similar with 4 shields.

Looking forward to it.


any tips on how to clean this? (no experience, I don't want to damage it).
some said to me to place it in olive oil ?

update (sorry, first post here. Thanks for pointing me to the rules):
found in West-Vlaanderen (West Flanders), Belgium
size and weight (note: weight only does gram as lowest unit):

​You can try Distilled (not demi) water for a week and see if the dirt comes off naturally or with a very fine soft toothrbrush. This is a good thread to read: https://en.numista.com/forum/topic74610.html

I've bought distilled water now and put the coin in. Let's see what happens.


Now, any suggestions on which coin it is? I can't find anything similar.

after several hours in distilled water.
a bit better to read now.

the side with the 4 shields, crossed sticks, firetool? (dutch:vuurslag) I think I see:
"[R/?][E/]?[C/G]VLVS" + ER[E/F] ?

maybe something like "REGVLVS" "ERE" ?

On the other side I think I see something like:

NE[C/O/G]? ° * ° M[E/?]

any ideas which coin?

Still looking for where it is from. Meantime, here are cropped images ...

with added lettering - yellow for most likely, green for not sure.
Such as second image lower left could be an O instead.

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic71935.html
makes things easier for everyone

Who is that directed at? What are you saying?

At the OP ... just common courtesy thread rules helping people who may search for the same coin in the future as well as for potential helpers. Dimentions make everything easier, also in the case of a ground find the location.

Correct - too many times there is no dimension !

Απόσπασμα: "ZacUK"​ Still looking for where it is from. Meantime, here are cropped images ...
​
​with added lettering - yellow for most likely, green for not sure.
​Such as second image lower left could be an O instead.

​i'm almost 100% sure that it is VLVS I clearly see an L shape.

i tried to photograph with mobile phone above a magnifier glass:

(updated the original post also. Thanks for pointing me to the rules! (first post))

Maybe Michaelw90 or Choucas have specialized books it doesn't look like we have this one in the catalog.

What kind of coin is this?

@Aurum, please use another topic.

@ZacUK, my wild guess is that it goes to Spanish Netherlands / Burgundian Netherlands.
A lot of lions, small crosses on the shields.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundian_Netherlands

The coin itself has 4 shields (coat of arms).
2 (left and right), maybe third (bottom?) are lions.
Could maybe point to Liège, Picardy,..

Why Burgundian?

• Location where it was found (= West Flanders, Belgium)
  
• similar elements from a "Bourgondische kruisrijksdaalder Holland (the small crosses, lion, burgundian crossed sticks, briquet/vuurslag) 1568": http://www.nederlandsemunten.nl/Virtuele_munten_verzameling/Bisdom_Graafschappen_Heerlijkheden_Hertogdommen/Graafschap_Holland/Verzameling_zilveren_Bourgondische_kruisrijksdaalder_Holland_1568.htm
  
  
• 3 to 4 shields seem to be often used in Spanish Netherlands (Vlaanderen). E.g.: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces19971.html
  
• 3 lions: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces44729.html
  
• similar burgundian cross, a lion, ... https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces120404.html
  
• https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces158318.html
  
• https://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/O7890-Scarce-Spanish-Netherland-Ch-Comptes-1574-Croix-Bourgogne-briquet/233288116069?hash=item36510e2765:g:jPsAAOSwdrdcOeup
  
• Philippe II comes closer: https://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotviewer.php?LotID=4250415&AucID=4453&Lot=1969&Val=1e5978ca41a45bbf0e3e5b1ca51b02f5
  
• Philip II of spain, the lion, crosses, location, ... https://www.cgbfr.com/pays-bas-espagnols-tournai-philippe-ii-despagne-double-patard-1593-tournai-sup,fwo_423631,a.html
  
• https://fr.numista.com/catalogue/pieces68229.html
  

I can't seem to get any much further, but I think it is headed into this direction, not sure though.

• 
  

I used one of your later pictures, and made this ...

Lettering - yellow fairly sure - green not so sure.
So not sure if it is a C or an O after the S letter.
I do not think it can be a V before the L as looking at the V angles,
the letter before the L looks as vertical as the L itself.
Still have no idea where it is from, yet.

@ZacUK, I think the crosses are Fleur-de-lis if you look at the curves:



about the 'V' before the 'L'.
If you look closely, both bones seem to be connected  and |
Which other character could this be  and | connected? 'V' ? 'U'? 'Y' ?
(Still looks 'V' to me at this moment )



so curious to find which coin it is.

@ZacUK, do you see the same? I started seeing a "neck" and "laurel wreath" with different lighting, not sure though!!

I too am not sure.
I think between the shields the big X shape is called a 'cross fleuretty'.
If it is a V before the L then some coins do have CALCVLVS lettering on them.

wow great @ZacUK ! if this is CALCVLVS means it might be a (calculation) jeton (rekenpenning).

just did a quick bing.com search:

https://www.laurensschulman.nl/1671-verlangen-naar-vrede-door-de-nederlanden-137443

https://millenium-state.com/item/5239/o7913-scarce-token-spanish-netherland-camere-rationv-calcvlvs-1578

http://www.dugniolle.com/dugniolle2501-2600.html
http://www.dugniolle.com/dugniolle2701-2800.html

2571, 2572, 2729, ...

ok now i need to find out the correct front, which person/lettering is on the coin!

Well done !
From those searches I see >
Reverse lettering: CAMERE RATIONV INSVLEN CALCVLVS
and I made a rough animation >

Thanks ZacUK!
glad to have found a "Filips II".

Oh, and I found this ...
Obverse lettering: NEC SPE NEC METV
Not yet sure what those Latin abbreviations translate to -
similarly with obverse lettering. Still looking ...

P.S. From where I found the above, it also said the cross between
the shields is called a 'Crux Burgundica'. Also it said the jeton
was made in 1578 apparently.

I'm looking at http://www.dugniolle.com/
there are several similar ones, looking at the details right now to figure out which one.
It is indeed a jeton (dutch: rekenpenning).

While I was typing that reply I did not know you had made one also.
The NEC SPE NEC METV becomes NEC SPE, NEC METU and means
Without Hope, Without Fear

Απόσπασμα: "wst"​wow great @ZacUK ! if this is CALCVLVS means it might be a (calculation) jeton (rekenpenning).
​
​just did a quick bing.com search:
​
​https://www.laurensschulman.nl/1671-verlangen-naar-vrede-door-de-nederlanden-137443
​
​https://millenium-state.com/item/5239/o7913-scarce-token-spanish-netherland-camere-rationv-calcvlvs-1578
​
​http://www.dugniolle.com/dugniolle2501-2600.html
​http://www.dugniolle.com/dugniolle2701-2800.html
​
​2571, 2572, 2729, ...
​
​ok now i need to find out the correct front, which person/lettering is on the coin!

I just now re-looked at that second link, and it agrees with the lettering and date
that I found elsewhere !

still not sure which reference number from dugnoille (dugn.) it is.

I can't find pictures for dugn. 2639, dugn. 2668. so I can't see the details from these.

it is not reference dugn. 2696, 2764, 2764a, 2794n 2551, 2571, 2695, 3055.

It could be dugn. 2729.
But maybe also 2639, 2668 as I don't have pictures from it.

So I don't know 100% for sure. The detail is in NEC METV. Between "NEC METV" you see either dots vertical or horizontal. Mine has .°. (horizontal) similar to dugn. 2729, while for example dugn. 2764 or dugn. 2764a have dots vertical between "NEC METV".


(am I correct there is nothing added from dugn. in numista database?)

Not looked yet. I now made this roughly of the obverse ...


with lettering in yellow probably, green maybe, brown missing. I also
added a rough portrait (so you were correct that is what is on the obverse)
plus the actual date which is on there.

not sure about the date, see my previous post and check numbers at http://www.dugniolle.com/

I found 57 results from searching Dugn in the Reference box from
the dropdown menu, and putting a * in the number box next to it ...

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/index.php?mode=avance&p=1&l=&r=&e=&d=&ru=&i=&ca=288&no=*&se=&v=&m=&a=&t=&dg=&w=&u=&f=&g=&c=&wi=&sw=&tb=y&tc=y&tn=y&tp=y&tt=y&cat=y&ct=coin

Απόσπασμα: "ZacUK"​ While I was typing that reply I did not know you had made one also.
​The NEC SPE NEC METV becomes NEC SPE, NEC METU and means
​Without Hope, Without Fear
​
​

​It's from a phrase of Cicero: "whom neither terror, nor violence, nor hope, nor fear, nor promises, nor threats, nor arms, nor firebrands, could influence so as to make them cease to stand by your authority"