1 Sucre Ibero-American Series - National Park Cotopaxi mintage 10,000 [επιλυμένο]

Greetings,

Modified https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces152360.html to reflect correct mintage.

The FNMT-RCM of Spain states that up to 10,000 shall be minted: http://www.fnmt.es/en/coleccionista/emisiones-2017/xi-serie-iberoamericana

The set of 10 coins is on sale at the FNMT-RCM online store: https://tienda.fnmt.es/fnmttv/fnmt/es/Productos/Monedas/XI-SERIE-IBEROAMERICANA-%27MARAVILLAS-NATURALES%27/p/32877020

Attentively,

Why do you persist in your insistence that the mintage limit is the mintage? Its ridiculous.

Απόσπασμα: "Oklahoman"​Why do you persist in your insistence that the mintage limit is the mintage? Its ridiculous.

​Good point, I just noticed that on the site. Would be odd to have 10,000 as the mintage if they never sell that many.

I wonder if they have a cut-off point where they say "Well nobody else wants them, no more will be made".

Απόσπασμα: "Oklahoman"​Why do you persist in your insistence that the mintage limit is the mintage? Its ridiculous.

​Dear Oklahoman,

Until the mint reaches the maximum licensed production, it's capacity to sell additional coins has an effect on the market for the coin.

In this case, the FNMT-RCM sells complete sets of commemorative coins online directly. A merchant could markup or grade individual coins, especially if a coin is popular.

Commemorative coins that have "run out the clock" no longer have a "maximum mintage." Instead, they have a mintage certain. Commemorative coins dated prior to 1999 have generally "run out the clock." The catalog entries for a coin sometimes will display the maximum mintage crossed out, replaced by the actual mintage. See photo from Weltmünzkatalog 20. Jahrhundert- 1901 - 2000 46.Auflage 2018-19 ISBN 978-3-86646-152-9 Pg 666 Schön#98:


It is yet to be seen if commemorative coins dated after 2002 have a time limit due to the subsequent financial crisis. The mint pays a licensing fee for the commemorative coinage so that any time limit would be specified in the sales contract.

Even if the BCE claims an allotment of 1,275, the numismatic museum posts this coin on their website at https://numismatico.bce.fin.ec/index.php/tienda.html as available only to visitors of the Museo Numismático del Ecuador in Quito for $34.20 USD.

General queries concerning commemorative coins from Ecuador for the Ibero-American Series following 2002 have referred me to the http://www.fnmt.es/coleccionista/anos-anteriores web site.

While a mint continues to actively sell the commemorative coins in question, an actual coinage for a date certain would be meaningless, even if available from a reputable source.

Best regards,

Thank goodness you are in a minority of thinkers.

Απόσπασμα: "Oklahoman"...​

​Dear Oklahoman,

You are referring to wishful thinkers and opportunists, not numismatists.

Best regards,

Απόσπασμα: "​Jasanche"Hello Bears. Thank you for your modification submission, but I tend to agree with the decision of leaving actual minting numbers in that field, and not the maximum approved numbers. If you would like to add the maximum mintage number in the comments, I would be happy to review that request.​

Dear Jasanche,

The official mintage as reported by the Spanish mint is up to 10,000.

The mint continues to sell the coins on its website.

The BCE mintage is an allotment from which the numismatic museum continues to sell the commemorative.

The naive expectation is that the date that appears on coins is also the date that the coins were minted, and no coins have been minted since that date.

This is incorrect.

I have done you the favor of resubmitting the modification request without reference to the BCE allotment.

Best regards,

Good job Jasanche. Mintage limits should never be recorded as the mintage. Numismatist everywhere thank you for not perpetuating clowning around in relationship to actual mintages and mintage limits.

The mintage limit is effective until the mint stops producing and selling the coins.

One would suppose that when the mint says "up to 10,000" coins that it means "up to 10,000" coins.

No it is not. Sadly ignorant of reality. Keep reading and researching. You will figure it out. Very rarely are mintage limits met. You would have the numismatic world believe that we should disregard facts for your feelings because of numismatic rarity numbers and magazine adverts and COA paper that list a maximum mintage? Some modern mints that are contract mints have been rumored to do as you say. The numismatic community is not impressed with this. Responsible catalogers will never be so unethical to show a mintage max as an actual mintage.

Απόσπασμα: "Oklahoman"​No it is not. Sadly ignorant of reality...

​Dearest Oklahoman,

Where is your documentation of the production shortfall?

National mintage, "Mercado interno," is not the same as international mintage, "Mercado externo."

One mintage can not be used as a substitute for the other in order to suit your wishes.

Peru is an example of an issuing authority that takes responsibility for all coins issued under license, both national and international. See http://www.bcrp.gob.pe/docs/Billetes-Monedas/Monedas-de-Coleccion/Serie-Iberoamericana.pdf

This is page 12 of that PDF:


You will see that the 10,000 maximum mintage reported by the FNMT-RCM of Spain is split between a 2,500 national mintage and a 7,500 international mintage for the Peru's contribution to the same series.

This is the photo of the XI SERIE IBEROAMERICANA 'MARAVILLAS NATURALES set at the FNMT-RCM store that includes both the 1 Sucre Ibero-American Series - National Park Cotopaxi and the 1 Sol Natural Wonders coins:

Notice that the "tirada" is 10,000.

You have no documentation of the production shortfall because the issue is still in production.

Best regards,

The FNMT publishes every year the real volume minted of each circulating coin and the 30, 20 and 12€. When the production of one coin has not been finished, they add a warning about that coin. The warning is with production of coins started in the last months.

Here is the last report about coins of 30, 20 and 12€:
http://www.fnmt.es/documents/10179/30475/20190207-Datos+Fabricacion+Euro+30_20_12/

Unfortunately the Ibero-american series isn't in the report.

To get information about all the coins minted in FNMT, every Spanish dealer has under the counter this catalog:
http://hnosguerra.com/producto/catalogo-hnos-guerra-2020/

The publisher gets the real production data from the FNMT, so the real mintage of the 1 Sucre is the mintage of the series in the Hnos. Guerra catalog of 2019 or 2020, that I haven't. This catalog is a second-hand source, but any other source is third-hand. If you want the data first-hand, ask here
http://www.fnmt.es/en/formulario-contacto

Απόσπασμα: "zegeri"​The FNMT publishes every year the real volume minted of each circulating coin and the 30, 20 and 12€. When the production of one coin has not been finished, they add a warning about that coin. The warning is with production of coins started in the last months...

​
Dear zegeri,

Thank you for the links.

A useful source, to be sure, tracking the yearly production of Spanish commemorative coins for 30, 20, 12 Euros, as well as 2,000 pesetas. A separate document exists for the 2 Euro bimetallic coins, also.

Specialty coins in individual commemorative cases have separate corresponding documents. For example, the 2007 L Tratado de Roma 200 Euro and 10 Euro coins are of 3,500 and 30,000 pieces, respectively, detailed here. These details exactly correspond to those displayed at https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces30924.html and https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces30923.html

The details for the XI SERIE IBEROAMERICANA 'MARAVILLAS NATURALES set lists a mintage (tirada) of 10,000 pieces.

Since the coins are licensed from their respective nations, the mint run is not at the sole discretion of the FNMT, so that production of the coins has already ended when the 10,000 nth set sells (e.g. up to 10,000),

The sets are still for sale at the FNMT store, so to query the email recipient at gprensa@fnmt.es concerning the terminating conditions of the production of this series might be considered hypothetical and premature.

Never-the-less, I am sending the following email:

Asunto: XI Serie Iberoamericana de monedas de colección

Estimados,

Además de la circulación 10.000, ¿hay alguna otra circunstancia que terminaría con el cumplimiento de licencias nacionales?

Atentamente,

Απόσπασμα: "​Jasanche"Hello Bears. Thank you for your modification submission, but I tend to agree with the decision of leaving actual minting numbers in that field, and not the maximum approved numbers. If you would like to add the maximum mintage number in the comments, I would be happy to review that request.​

​
​Dear Jasanche,
​
I have condescended to your request, and also submit the following comment:

"​The official mintage as reported by the FNMT-RCM of Spain is 10,000: http://www.fnmt.es/en/coleccionista/emisiones-2017/xi-serie-iberoamericana
​
​The mint continues to sell the coins on its website: https://tienda.fnmt.es/fnmttv/fnmt/es/Productos/Monedas/XI-SERIE-IBEROAMERICANA-%27MARAVILLAS-NATURALES%27/p/32877020
​
​The BCE mintage is an allotment from which the numismatic museum continues to sell the commemorative. Even if the BCE claims an allotment of 1,275, the coins listed on its website at https://numismatico.bce.fin.ec/index.php/tienda.html are only available to visitors of the Museo Numismático del Ecuador in Quito.

​The naive expectation is that the date that appears on coins is also the date of conclusion.
​
​This is incorrect.

Peru is an example of an issuing authority that takes responsibility for all coins issued under license, both national and international. See http://www.bcrp.gob.pe/docs/Billetes-Monedas/Monedas-de-Coleccion/Serie-Iberoamericana.pdf

This is page 12 of that PDF:


The 10,000 maximum mintage reported by the FNMT-RCM of Spain is thus split between a 2,500 national mintage and a 7,500 international mintage for Peru's contribution to the same series.

This is the photo of the XI SERIE IBEROAMERICANA 'MARAVILLAS NATURALES set at the FNMT-RCM store that includes both the 1 Sucre Ibero-American Series - National Park Cotopaxi and the 1 Sol Natural Wonders coins:

Notice that the 'tirada' is 10,000."

Best regards,

Απόσπασμα: "​Jasanche"— Thank you, Bears, for your detailed explanation, but this will remain as is. What you can do is put in a modification request for the general comments with "according to the agreement, a maximum of 10,000 specimens can be minted by the RCM of Spain" or something like that. I would happily approve that.​

Dear Jasanche,

What is your source for the reported BCE mintage?

The Banco Central del Ecuador refers me to the FNMT-RCM website.

Best regards,

Sorry, if I've misunderstood, but is the disagreement about which figure to use, when we know both the "actual" mintage and the "maximum" mintage?

If so, wouldn't the catalog guidelines be determinative?

• The quantity: Total number of coins minted that year with that letter
  
• Comment (optional). You may describe the specifics of that mintage. Give the full KM like KM#3.1, KM#3.2 or KM#3.3. Duplicate the full same comment on each line if required.
  

(emphasis added)

I would read this to say that if you know the "actual" you should use that because the guidance says "number of coins minted" NOT "number of coins authorized to be minted." If we don't know the "actual" mintage, then I would read this to allow using the "maximum" number with a comment specifying that this is a "maximum" number.

So, unless the guidelines are changed, I would argue that this is the rule that should apply to all coins.

That said, I don't know if the Numista catalog is consistent in this application, so perhaps other corrections need to be made. A case in point is the 5 oz. US Moon Landing Silver Dollar, which lists the "mintage" as 100,000, when this is also just a maximum allowed over several products and the "actual" mintage so far is only 65,463 (according to the most recent weekly US Mint report). Does this mean that the mintage should be updated weekly until either the maximum is hit or the minting of that coin is declared as over?

In the case of the US coin, the Mint will announce the total at the end of the program year. The US Mint does not strike for years up to the allowable mintage.

Απόσπασμα: "RGormanJr"​...Does this mean that the mintage should be updated weekly until either the maximum is hit or the minting of that coin is declared as over?

​Dear RGormanJr,

The maximum mintage for commemorative precious metal coins overhangs the market while the mint continues to sell the issue, so that, when a mint reports a maximum coinage figure, the actual mintage as a function of time is closely guarded by the FNMT-RCM of Spain and other mints worldwide.

In the meantime, any purported "actual mintage" is suspect unless it can be shown that the mintage is directly reported by a reputable source. Variation between actual and maximum mintage is almost without exception due to variation in the domestic and international coinages which can not be directly compared.

Some authorities, such as Peru and Argentina, specify both the domestic and international licensed coinages.

Coins that enter general circulation by way of banking institutions absolutely require timely reporting. Such coins generally do not have a publicly available maximum mintage, are not made of precious metals, and the date of the coin is usually the date that coinage concludes.

For US minted commemorative coins, I would consider the projected mintage for the US coins still available from the mint, then wait for the actual mintage report, if delayed.

For US coins that still available from the mint, unsold inventory becomes a complicating factor for an actual mintage figure that is less than the projected. Indeed, the US Mint has warehoused large quantities of unsold commemorative coins that have fallen well short of projections of eminent demand.

In publications, the maximum mintage may appear in strikeout typeface, followed by the actual mintage, if known.

Other mints have chosen to melt down their unsold inventory as the price of the precious metals has risen well beyond the offer price. Sometimes, such coins are known and reported by the coin cataloger in a footnote. See CoinWeek: The Rise and Fall of the Franklin Mint at https://coinweek.com/education/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-franklin-mint/

Best regards,

Απόσπασμα: "Oklahoman"​In the case of the US coin, the Mint will announce the total at the end of the program year. The US Mint does not strike for years up to the allowable mintage.

​Dear Oklahoman,

Earlier this year, the US Mint offered 2017 dated coins.

As of today, the US Mint has only 2018 and 2019 dated coins.

The US Mint tries to minimize the coins it must warehouse.

For example, the final mintage date for the 2016 Reagan Commemorative Dollar was posted 3/5/2018. See https://www.pcgs.com/news/the-lowest-mintage-dollar-coins-in-111-years

Best regards,

The 2017 coins I found on the US Mint site are base metal quarters. No mintage limits.
2018 coins I found were mint and proof sets of circulating coins. I also saw silver versions for sale, and I saw 2018 5 ounce silver quarters for sale.

2019 are the only dates of commemorative coin programs for sale presently on the site.
2019 mint and proof sets in base metal and silver are available as is the 5 ounce silver quarters.

2017 and 2018 coins are not still being struck. They are coins that were struck in 2017 and 2018. The mint keeps some prior dated coins to exchange with customers who purchase a set that may require an exchange for some flaw. There are not. Circulation coins do not have mintage limits. Neither do the sets. The coins are struck in mintage runs that make their production worthwhile. They will not continue to be struck. They are obviously stock on hand and when they are gone they will be gone.

Did you perhaps notice that their are no 2016, or 2015, or 2014, or any earlier years of coins available? Hundreds of US coin issues exist that never even got near their mintage limits. They are not warehoused and eternally stuck until a maximum mintage is reached. US coins are usually struck to demand, and US commems rarely sell out. But sometimes they do. And it is always in the year of issue.

I really think you just literally do not understand things. Your Reagan coin date was the date the mintage limits were revealed, the article you referenced makes that clear. But you claim it as a day that the Reagan coins were last struck.
Many things you have to say about coins, (national vs international striking),is utter nonsense. But occasionally you hit the nail on the head, Pobjoy Mint used to restrike coins with fixed dates and so only ever listed a maximum.
Another mistake you make is to assume that every mint operates with that same ethic.
Would you mind sharing your numismatic experience? Because you seem to be in no agreement with the numismatists I have seen you interact with here. I would like to understand your thinking if that is even possible.

Have you actually been in the US Mints Warehoused vaults?

Dear Oklahoman,

Notice that I used "projected" to describe the coinage for US commemorative coins still for sale at the US Mint.

This is due to the possibility that actual mintage is considerably less than the projected mintage, especially for for unpopular issues, once the coins are no longer for sale at the mint.

Other mints worldwide have taken decades to move their commemorative coins.

For example, the Casa de Moneda of Mexico's Pre-Colombian coins had the following statistics when Don Bailey inventoried them in 1998: http://www.moneta-coins.com/library/Spanish%20Colonial%20Mexico%20-%20Bailey.pdf

This is a catalog of the same coins in 2005: http://donbailey-mexico.com/images/Catalogo_Monedas_150dpi.pdf

Notice the number of coins that were not sold-out at the mint up to 12 years after the issue date.

Then, compare Don Bailey's 1998 document to the Whitman Encyclopedia of Mexican Money, Volume II 2nd ed. Edition in 2015 by Don and Lois Bailey ISBN 978-0794839543.

Bailey was personally responsible for making a market in the Pre-Colombian coins of Mexico and distributing most of the coins up to two decades after they were first issued. He recognized the beauty and rarity of the coins.

I see you haven't bothered to read the PCGS link describing the huge quantities of US Presidential commemorative coins warehoused by the US Mint in the days when the mint did produce the specified coinage as predetermined by law.

Best regards,

Presidential dollars had no mintage limits.

How Mexico and their Mint do things is in no way evident that the US Mint does the same things.

I would encourage you to keep reading books. Maybe take some coin classes if you are actually in the United States. Read some books besides Schon. I recommend the Red Book for US coins. I would certainly spend some time in the ANA library and learn the differences between maximum mintage and actual mintage of coins. There are summer classes taught by the ANA. In various subject areas of the hobby. You might like them, you might not.

You didn't share your numismatic CV. Is it because you dont have one?

Απόσπασμα: "Oklahoman"​Presidential dollars had no mintage limits.
​
​How Mexico and their Mint do things is in no way evident that the US Mint does the same things...

​Dearest Oklahoman,

We are a little off topic here since we are now concerned with US commemorative coins.

Let me quote an excerpt from the PCGS article:

"...In 2016, the Mint released the fifth and final Reverse Proof Presidential Dollar coin to commemorate President Ronald Reagan. This Coin and Chronicles set had a maximum production mintage of 150,000 sets and a household limit of just one set on its day of release. Due to its relatively high mintage, this set did not sell out on day one, or even nearly two years later. The Mint continued selling these sets through early 2018."

Then later, the 2018 post of the actual mintage:
"
.
.
Ronald Reagan 47,447 3/5/2018"

Again, the full text may be read at https://www.pcgs.com/news/the-lowest-mintage-dollar-coins-in-111-years if you care to look.

My favorite recent purchases of US coins include these given as gifts:




Is there anything else for which I can be of assistance?

Best regards