Baltics country list reorganization - discussion

Hello all, and most of all, Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians!

Since few months, I can reorder country list page, so I would like to adress the issue of Baltics.
And for that, I am turning to you, ordinary users, and I would be much pleased if members from those three countries voiced ther opinions here.

Currently we have thing ordered this way:

Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia have their own catalogue.

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth includes two subsections - Commonwealth itself and Duchy of Courland.

Lithuania includes coinage of medieval state, until it became part of Commonwealth.

There is also coin from Reval under Estonia.

Most problematic is listing under Latvia - it includes subsection for Livonia - which sums up various states, bishoprics, duchies and free city of Riga under one flag.

As you might know, we are going to somehow split it to smaller parts, and create second and third country levels. You can see it now on experimental Yemen listings:

So my proposal here is:

1. Leave Lithuania as it is.

2. As Livonia was on the territorry of BOTH todays Estonia and Latvia, I would move it from under Latvia to separate listings - it would become 1st level county.

3. All subsections of Livonia that were countries will become 2nd level countries (Livonian Order, Livonian confederation, Duchy of Livonia, and some Bishoprics and Arcbishoprics. I have problem with designation of Swedish (and Danish, if there were any) coins from this are. Can Swedish Livonia and Swedish Estonia be designated countries or not? Anyway, they should stay there. In the future there will be possibility to have a section that will not count as a country.

4. Duchy of Courland will move from Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth section under Livonia. (Maybe this can be kept under PLC, as other territorries were taken by Russian Empire in 1721 and Duchy of Courland only later)

5. Reval will move from Estonia to Livonia (to appropriate sections)

In result, all three Baltic states will have their catalogues clear and Livonia will have all coinage from its territorry on one place. (Livonia date span will be from establishment of Livonian Order until Russian Empire took the area)

So, I would like to engage with you, approvals/disapprovals, ideas?

Thanks for reading,
Best regards,
Jarek

Yes, there's the great thing to keep all the Livonian coins in one place. But the counting „Livonia - Duchy of Livonia - Thaler (1561-1629)“ is not clear, I think. Maybe we can ask Estonian Gunnar Haljak, he wrote many books about the Livonian coins about http://www.ghcoin.ee/books.phtml
F. e. there are some interesting examples of Livonian coins, minted in Livonian war period, under Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth rule:
http://archiwum.niemczyk.pl/auction/9/38/zygmunt-ii-august-inflanty-1-marka-1573-dahlholm
https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/coin_kingdom_llc/181/product/poland_livonia_governor_hetman_jan_chodkiewicz_inflant_wars_silver_shilling_1572_choice_xf/333443/Default.aspx
and also the Independent Free Riga or Reval under Swedish rule coins are of the same period.

I must admit that Livonia is quite crazyness now. That is why I would like to reorganize it.

And thank you, you just found pictures for these two coins:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces86412.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces86415.html

I added both very long ago, so I am quite happy.

Don't forget about Livonia and Estonia (the coins of the 1750s Russian occupation, currently a second-order country under Russia).

I thought about those, and I am not sure, I guess they should stay under Russia.

Απόσπασμα: "Jarcek". You can see it now on experimental Yemen listings:

​Well ... for Yemen, it's not correct to consider that the South Arabia Federation issuing coins on 1964 is equivalent to South Yemen which gathered on 1967 the South Arabia Federation and South Arabia Protectorate

Απόσπασμα: "Frenchlover"​

Απόσπασμα: "Jarcek". You can see it now on experimental Yemen listings:
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​​Well ... for Yemen, it's not correct to consider that the South Arabia Federation issuing coins on 1964 is equivalent to South Yemen which gathered on 1967 the South Arabia Federation and South Arabia Protectorate
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​That might look that... but some of those protectorates had their own coinage, and are not yet added or listed accordingly. And after all, this is first experiment.

Hello,

I am no historian, but regarding removing Reval / Revel coins from under Estonia, it does not sound right. Reval and Lindanise during the Danish rule are both older names for current Tallinn, a full member of the Hanseatic League of trade cities. Lindanise-Reval-Tallinn has always been the capital of Estonia, even while Livonia covered the southern parts of its current area. So removing its capital's coins from under Estonia ... does not make sense to me, at least.

Secondly, there should be a general rule for placing coins issued by an occupational government. Estonia being part of the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire is easy, German WWII occupation also, but the Danish and Swedish rules are much more complicated in terms of the ruling country's coins circulating on the Estonian territory and/or issued locally.

I think an opinion from some coin expert of that period - like Mr. Gunnar Haljak - would be of use.

Regards,
Aare Renzer

I thought it would be best to leave Swedish coins under Livonia (Estonia), because it was local coinage after all.

Hi,
I would wait for choosing flags till the issuers have been clearly defined. As it is now (and following several other recent discussions) it is not yet finalized under Estonia.
Under Reval (a town issuer!) we find coins from Danish period of North-Estonia, coins from Reval/Tallinn under Swedish Rule, coins from Narva (another town in North-Estonia) and coins from Ösel-Wiek (under Danish rule). So logic is a bit missing for now.
As they all fall within nowadays Estonia, I would leave them under Estonia (unlike Livonia). In other threads there has been a mention of the lack of continuity, but that's what happens when a small piece of land gets overrun by bigger neighbours (Denmark, Livonia, Sweden, Russia, Germany, USSR, Fins wanting cheap alcohol, ... who's next?).

Suggestion 1: we make a sub-country under Estonia and rename Reval to "Northern-Estonia" or"Duchy of Estonia (not completely correct in all time periods, but it's a nicer /clearer name for the region)" and under there we can include all the separate issuers from the Danish, Livonian, Swedish periods outside of Livonia (that south Estonia was part of), just like is done in the catalogue for Livonia. Which in fact just means renaming Reval to another name covering that old Estonian region.

Suggestion 2: we split up by the different eras:
Timeline
Danish era (Danish flag - BTW their flag fell from the sky while conquering Reval, so very approriate): for now 1 brakteat and also coins from Ösel-Wiek
Livonian era (Livonian flag): no coins yet included in catalogue, but there are for sure coins from Reval under rule of Livonian Order
Swedish era (indeed Swedish flag): coins from Reval and Narva from around 1583 till 1721
I have not yet found coins from Russia era specifically for Estonia.

Suggestion 3: split up by every issuer (like has been done with Livonia:
Danish Estonia, City of Reval (includes Livonian and Swedish), Bischopry of Ösel-Wiek, City of Narva

Please add your thought!

related topics:
Two New Issuers: Danish Estonia and the Bishopric of Riga
Creation of New Issuer: Bishopric of Ösel–Wiek
Just Wondering: will Reval Become a Country?
The Currency of Narva Coins


EDIT: I guess "Estonian states" sounds a bit stupid for a piece of land barely as big as a handkerchief (Flemish expression )

Well, usually, nobody sees this, but you found out... these issues you mentioned are in the process of being created and Sulfur (referee for City of Reval and the one who added all those coins) is harboring them there before they get created.

So this situation is temporary, and will be fixed once I have some free time to finally create those countries. :D

Then I'll just relax, sit back and watch you do the creating

Although the Bishopric of Ösel-Wiek had their territory in modern-day Estonia, the area they had belonged to Livonia, so when that bishopric gets created, I would prefer to see them as a sub-section of Livonia.

I am not sure what the planed placement for these new issuers is, but for the rest of the places, I see two ways they can be arranged. The first would be just listing them all under Estonia:


The second way, and the way I think would look nicer, would be something like this:


Swedish Estonia did not issue their own coins--they used Sweden's coins--but the two cities minted local coins meant to circulated alongside the Swedish ones. Making Reval and Narva subsections of Swedish Estonia could be a better indication of that situation.

EDIT: Or the places could be named "Estonia, Danish" and "Estonia, Swedish". I was not thinking of that when I made those pictures, but it would be more contestant with the rest of the catalogue that way.

I also kind of prefer the second option, as it follows more the historical evolution.

Now about Ösel-Wiek, we have a problem here! At the time of mintage of the coins we have in the catalogue, it was in possession of Denmark and thus no more part of Livonia (or Swedish Estonia). Afterwards Wiek (nowadays Läänemaa, on the mainland) became part of Swedish Estonia (1570), while Ösel (Saaremaa) stayed in Danish possession until the 1645 peace treaty of Brömesbro when it was turned over to Sweden. In my Estonian history it says "Saaremaa formally belonged to the (Swedish) Livonian province, but continued to preserve a special status" (different tax-system, own lord, nobility and church administration).

We have coins from Haapsal (Haapsalu - mainland) and Arensburg (Kuresaare, island). I think the easiest way to solve this is either make a separate country (don't like it) or join up with the Danish period of North-Estonia (there was no Danish rule in Livonia, it falls completely within nowadays Estonia, Läänemaa (and thus the coinage of Haapsal) afterwards was part of Swedish Estonia, Saaremaa has always had it's separate history).

Fun thread, makes me look up more and more of Estonia's history!We might have to take a new look at the WCC for Estonia after this is over ;)

You are right, I never noticed that those were minted after Ösel-Wiek left (was sold) "Livonia".

I guess that would mean placing it under Estonia makes more sense.

Regarding their placement under Estonia, well, lets create them first, then we can organize some more. I am glad we have Estonian (I presume) on board.

Well, it seems all maps I had saved were from before 1560, so it looks like I need to update my maps.

Yes, I agree with Ösel-Wiek being listed under Estonia. In the first picture I posted, it would be listed (alphabetically) between Narva and Reval. Or, in the second picture, Ösel-Wiek could be made a sub-section of Danish Estonia, and Danish Estonia could be made a sub-section of itself.

Or maybe it cam be placed... somewhere else. Its placement can be figured out after those places are created.

All three are now added.

And all coins are now under their proper issuers.

Now that each place under Estonia has been created, and each place has their proper flag, it is time to discus their ordering. As I stated somewhere above, I can see two ways of things being ordered. The first is just listing them, like what it currently is:


And the other way is with using sub-sections:


The second way looks more extensive, but I, personally, like it more. Partially for the historical accuracy, partially for the grouping of the flags' colours.

Vote for the second option