Weight Haiti 1973-1974 The Mermaid 50 Gourdes [επιλυμένο]

Numista states the weight of N#19328 KM# 104.1 is 20 grams and KM# 104.2 is 16.45 grams. SCWC lists KM# 104.1 as 16.75 grams and KM# 104.2 as 16.45 grams. @Anholts has a 1974 Proof weighing 16.63 grams, close enough to the SCWC weight, not the 20 gram Numista weight. https://en.numista.com/forum/topic160595.html

Does anyone know where Numista got 20 grams (there is no referee to ask)?

It is there from 2011, from original page creation. :)

Jarcek

It is there from 2011, from original page creation. :)

Well that explains it.  It was copied from SCWC 35th Edition 2008:

If SCWC fixed their mistake, shouldn't Numista too?

Thanks for the research, fixed it. :)

Thanks for fixing it. : )

Thank you all for not only answering my question, but taking the time to research and improving Numista.

Sorry for re-opening an old thread, but I just got this coin a few days ago, weighed it, and noticed it was way off from what Numista said. 

My coin is in fact 20 grams (my scale is off by a few decimals), like the SCWC 35th Edition 2008 said, so now it is clear that there is somehow 3 different weight varieties for the same year coin (1973). 

Anyway, because of this I'm requesting another line to be added: 1973, KM# 104.1 Proof; 20.00 grams.

Thanks,

Parker

It should also have different diameter then?

I don't believe it has a different diameter (from when I first checked), but I will get back to you in a couple days and check both the diameter and thickness to verify.

The thickness would be the most likely differences.

Different weight and thickness should be a new listing?

Well, it should, that is why I am asking.

Alright, just took some measurements (sorry for the rudimentary equipment, a ruler and a dead pair of electronic calipers, lol).

Here is the diameter:

It appears that my coin has the same 38 mm as it already says on Numista. 

Here is the thickness:

You would think since it weighs more than the other examples, it would have a thicker diameter, but it is certainly not 3 mm, possibly even ~ 2.25 to 2.5 mm instead. This makes the whole situation even more confusing.

I can confirm the coin is genuine and came right from the official mint packaging, which does not list any specifications unfortunately.

This being said, if a new weight and thickness warrant a new page (instead of just a new line), then a new page will need to be created! And what about the different weight varieties already on the page, 16.45 vs 16.75, do we need a new page for one of those as well? 

I appreciate the help/advice from everyone!

I don't see how there could be two types at 16.45 and 16.75 grams, as this 1.8% difference is within the tolerances of modern coin production.

KM has a number of coins of this denomination listed at 16.75 (and the few measurd examples I can find are around 16.65) , so maybe 16.75 is the better choice.  

My 1973 also weighs in at 20.2g. I was confused at first when i didn't see the correct weight listed in Numista.

38mm diameter and 2.5 ish mm thick.

Passes Precious Coin Tester Ping Test which oddly enough has the default weight for the coin set to 20g.

tdziemia

I don't see how there could be two types at 16.45 and 16.75 grams, as this 1.8% difference is within the tolerances of modern coin production.

 

KM has a number of coins of this denomination listed at 16.75 (and the few measurd examples I can find are around 16.65) , so maybe 16.75 is the better choice.  

 

SCWC originally used two types as the design differs, specifically the location of the fineness mark, and the weight. As for the weight, SCWC clearly guessed either the first time or the second time.  I'd like to go back to the original post that started this change to confirm the weight, diameter, etc. of their 1974 coin.

@Anholts 

@rsirian1 

Thanks. 

Hey, its been a few weeks, just checking in on this thread, wondering what the status is right now. 

Since me and Ag_Astronaut47 do in fact own the 20 g variety of this coin, it does need to be added as another line on this coin (right?). And does it need to have another KM number, since the KM#104.1 is the 16.75 g variety, while the KM# 104.2 is the 16.45 g variety, will we need a 104.3? Is this something only Numismaster does, would it even be possible I don't know. 

If one of the master referees here has an idea, if they want to make the edit, or I can make it myself if I should (we don't need a new page, right?)

Just thought I'd ask since I would like this one catalogued correctly if possible, as we all want Numista to be as accurate as possible. Thanks!

20% difference in weight means that yes, we need a new page.

The two members here are not the only ones to report 20 grams for the 1973 proof:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=14111238

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=8351910

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=7010490

…and it also exists in UNC:

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=8351910

It seems the path forward is to create a KM#104.1var. for the 1973 proof with fineness mark at left, at 20.0 g. weight, which has now been done:  N#534964. 

It's not clear whether we should pull that date line out of the current listing N#19328. (I can find one online sale for the 1973 proof  listed at the lower weight:  https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=14215957  No way to know if the coin was actually weighed). 

I will add that I am not convinced that KM#104.2 with fineness mark on the right exists.  I could not find an example among over 35 sales (or items for sale)  on acsearch and eBay.  (I did, however, find one counterfeit).  Nevertheless, a comment has been added to the KM#104 listing on the difference between #104.1 and #104.2, and the comments on the date lines have been edited accordingly.

Please take a look and if other edits are recommended, please provide. Then we willl close this.

But wait! It gets better …  It's not the only type that also exists at 20 grams in 1973.  It also occurs for the KM#105 proof: N#19085

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=14337802

https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=14111239

I wonder what was going on with planchet sourcing wherever these were made?  

I think we're done her. Good job to all!

Though the mystery is not completely solved, here is another data point:

The 1973 50 Gourdes coin was struck at the Royal Canadian Mint at a weight of 20 grams.  The 1974 appears to have been struck someplace else:

https://coinsandcanada.com/coins-articles.php?article=haiti-coins-struck-by-the-royal-canadian-mint&id=744

It would not surprise me if the 2008 SCWC (2d post in the thread) was close:  KM# 104.1 was indeed struck at 20 grams, but only in 1973.  Since Anholts has a 1974 proof at 16.5 grams, this suggests that KM#104.2 should have 1974 (not 1973) as the only year.  And since we have yet to find an example with the fineness mark on the right, who knows what that is about.

The mint for 1974 remains unknown, but I have a good guess.  

These types at the same denomination (and same size planchets) were struck in San Francisco in 1974:

N#19085

N#25848

N#26478

I bet the 1974 Mermaid (KM# 104.2) was struck there and that the fineness mark was in the same place as these other three:  on the left.