Help Id Frisia (?) coin [επιλυμένο]

Hi,

Need some help with this one.
It looks like a Jager - Groningen: 
N#315347

However, it has 3 star and a clover at obverse, and 1 star/1 circle as puntuation marks.
It seems to be from MCCC?X, LX maybe with a couterstamp over the L

Also the metrics are off: 27mm, 1.8g

Appreciate any help.

Salve, ho trovato un catalogo che indica che per l anno 1460 venivano coniate monete con un quadrifoglio al posto di una stella, purtroppo non ci sono i dati ponderali. Il numero di riferimento è VdCh X-54 oppure Puister 1254.

It looks like a correct attribution.  It would be normal for some variation in punctuation in different years, but I can check in the Levinson catalog later today.  

Yes, it looks like MCCCCLX or 1460.  It's a great coin, in nice condition for the type, and I am guessing rather rare.   

After looking in Levinson, I can add these comments:

1. The weight is indeed low for the type.  Levinson reports weights 2.5 - 2.6 grams for 1458-1463.  For 1456 he reports 2.1 gr. and for 1465 he reports 2.1 - 2.5 gr.  From another Frisian mint (Bolsward), he reports a weight of 1.7 gr. for the 1457 jager.  So, the weight on your coin is low, but not impossible for the type.

2. Your coin is correct on the 3 stars / 1 clover reverse, which was used between 1458-1463 as best I can tell.

3. Your coin is correct on the star/annulet punctuation reverse.  As guessed, the punctuation varied a lot.  Levinson's 1458 photo shows two stacked crosses for punctuation, also seen here:  https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=473671

The 1461 and 1462 have two stacked saltires for punctuation, and the 1465 has two stacked stars:  https://www.ma-shops.com/henzen/item.php?id=64229

Based on the design details, it looks genuine to me, but should be confirmed by technique like XRF.  We don't have a specific composition in the Numista listing, but in this era, Low Countries coins of these denominations were typically around 40-50% silver.  

As you can see from the second link, it is a rare type, and even with the small hole, highly collectible.

Alexander75

Salve, ho trovato un catalogo che indica che per l anno 1460 venivano coniate monete con un quadrifoglio al posto di una stella, purtroppo non ci sono i dati ponderali. Il numero di riferimento è VdCh X-54 oppure Puister 1254.

 

Thank you very much

tdziemia

After looking in Levinson, I can add these comments:

1. The weight is indeed low for the type.  Levinson reports weights 2.5 - 2.6 grams for 1458-1463.  For 1456 he reports 2.1 gr. and for 1465 he reports 2.1 - 2.5 gr.  From another Frisian mint (Bolsward), he reports a weight of 1.7 gr. for the 1457 jager.  So, the weight on your coin is low, but not impossible for the type.

 

2. Your coin is correct on the 3 stars / 1 clover reverse, which was used between 1458-1463 as best I can tell.

 

3. Your coin is correct on the star/annulet punctuation reverse.  As guessed, the punctuation varied a lot.  Levinson's 1458 photo shows two stacked crosses for punctuation, also seen here:  https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=473671

The 1461 and 1462 have two stacked saltires for punctuation, and the 1465 has two stacked stars:  https://www.ma-shops.com/henzen/item.php?id=64229

 

Based on the design details, it looks genuine to me, but should be confirmed by technique like XRF.  We don't have a specific composition in the Numista listing, but in this era, Low Countries coins of these denominations were typically around 40-50% silver.  

As you can see from the second link, it is a rare type, and even with the small hole, highly collectible.

 

  

Thank you very much, but I feel that that weight difference is kind of a red flag, as I can't test it.

So, it is not your coin?

tdziemia

So, it is not your coin?

no

I am curious about the price it is offered at (which could also be a clue on authenticity).

tdziemia

I am curious about the price it is offered at (which could also be a clue on authenticity).

Indeed, the problem is that the seller have not a clue about the coin (it's being sold as “to be attributed”), hence asking a very low price, around US$ 100.00.

juliofcampos

tdziemia

I am curious about the price it is offered at (which could also be a clue on authenticity).

Indeed, the problem is that the seller have not a clue about the coin (it's being sold as “to be attributed”), hence asking a very low price, around US$ 100.00.

Oh my.

RegularCoiner

juliofcampos

tdziemia

I am curious about the price it is offered at (which could also be a clue on authenticity).

Indeed, the problem is that the seller have not a clue about the coin (it's being sold as “to be attributed”), hence asking a very low price, around US$ 100.00.

Oh my.

Indeed. If fake it's a huge loss, for US$100.00 is a lot of money here.

tdziemia

After looking in Levinson, I can add these comments:

1. The weight is indeed low for the type.  Levinson reports weights 2.5 - 2.6 grams for 1458-1463.  For 1456 he reports 2.1 gr. and for 1465 he reports 2.1 - 2.5 gr.  From another Frisian mint (Bolsward), he reports a weight of 1.7 gr. for the 1457 jager.  So, the weight on your coin is low, but not impossible for the type.

 

2. Your coin is correct on the 3 stars / 1 clover reverse, which was used between 1458-1463 as best I can tell.

 

3. Your coin is correct on the star/annulet punctuation reverse.  As guessed, the punctuation varied a lot.  Levinson's 1458 photo shows two stacked crosses for punctuation, also seen here:  https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=473671

The 1461 and 1462 have two stacked saltires for punctuation, and the 1465 has two stacked stars:  https://www.ma-shops.com/henzen/item.php?id=64229

 

Based on the design details, it looks genuine to me, but should be confirmed by technique like XRF.  We don't have a specific composition in the Numista listing, but in this era, Low Countries coins of these denominations were typically around 40-50% silver.  

As you can see from the second link, it is a rare type, and even with the small hole, highly collectible.

 

  

Hi,
Asked at Munthandel G. Henzen website, and here's the answer:

"This is indeed a jager 1460 from Groningen.

It is published in van der Chijs (Plate X, 54),

Frey 100, Puister 1.254c, Stephanik 3459 and Levinson III, 31.

It is a very rare coin. A pity that it is holed.

The weight is indeed rather low. The usual weight is circa 2.50 / 2.60 gram.

Due to circulation, weight loss always occurs. Oxidation or mounting can also cause weight loss.

But over a 0.5 gram loose of weight is a big difference, so I also doubt whether the coin is authentic.
"

Júlio

Well, I think they are one of the best experts on rare early Dutch coins (with V. Schulman and Jean Elsen).  

Indeed, 5-10% of weight might be lost by extreme circulation wear, but not more (and this coin is not badly worn compared to other examples that measure 2.5-2.6 gr.).  And the coin is of the normal diameter, so it has not had weight removed by edge clipping.

So, this leaves only the options of a fake, or an underweight planchet (flan).

If it is fake, it is an extraordinarily good one, getting all of the small details like punctuation which was only used in that year correct.