How to record lettering on banknotes? [επιλυμένο]

How “accurately” should we record lettering on banknotes? Many notes feature repetition of the denomination in numerals and/or words arranged across both sides of the note, together with phrases which only make sense if read within one part of the note and not if the note is treated as a single body of text. Is there any purpose in trying to represent that in the lettering section of our entries? We have some notes where this hase been attempted, such as these three from Canada:

N#252309

N#330854

N#330855

I'm not singling out Canada in particular, it's just the the issue has come up whilst editing some Canadian notes. I appreciate that someone has gone to considerable effort to try and recreate what's written on the notes but, quite frankly, it doesn't work. Take the first note, where “1/ONE” and “ONE/1” are both used to signify the word ONE printed over the numeral 1, or the second, where spaces have been added to try and recreate the positioning of the words and numbers that are ignored by the website (you can only see them when trying to modify the entry). In the third, the phrases

WILL PAY TO BEARER ON DEMAND

and
PAIERA AU PORTEUR SUR DEMANDE

are instead shown as

WILL PAY TO BEARER PAIERA AU PORTEUR

and
ON DEMAND SUR DEMANDE

because they appear in two lines on opposite sides of the notes. Surely the purpose of the lettering section is to make the lettering searchable? The images show how the lettering is arranged, so trying to recreate this (inevitably inaccurately) is pointless and can leave the actual lettering unsearchable. Perhaps this is a failing in the guidelines but it needs addressing.

Hm. Quite Right.

A sensible approach should prevail in these circumstances.

Text on bilingual notes ought to be transcribed in a usable manner. I would suggest text on the left side of the banknote first, then text on the right side next:

As such, a bilingual note in, for example, Swedish on the left and Finnish on the right, would have:

Lettering:

SWEDISH TEXT

FINNISH TEXT

Translation
English
French
Spanish

Looking at the examples in OP, this is nonsense:
"WILL PAY TO BEARER PAIERA AU PORTEUR"
and
"ON DEMAND SUR DEMANDE"

This isn't:
"WILL PAY TO BEARER ON DEMAND"
and
"PAIERA AU PORTEUR SUR DEMANDE"

Numerals should not be included in the lettering in the manner in which they are in this:
N#252309
Again, it produces nonsense.

This oneis worse than nonsense [N#330854]
—an example of doctrine taken to the extreme, which removes logical sense from the result, creating gobbledygook:

Lettering:
DOMINION OF CANADA
FOUR FOUR

4 4
FOUR FOUR

FOUR FOUR
DOLLARS4DOLLARS 

…at least space out ‘DOLLARS4DOLLARS’ at the bottom.

I personally am for putting everything that is not just a design element like countlessly repeated background or edge text in the lettering field.

Sometimes it's hard to read, be it very small, strange font or bad example picture and I would like to know what is written there.

Also I like to add text how it is on the note, at least for kanji notes it is easy even when they are written top to bottom left to right (the text can also not be easily stolen by other sites this way 😜).

With purely Latin text this is most often not advisable. 

Usually nobody is full text searching (a few words should suffice), at least it would be quite dumb to do that on Numista, we are not Google. So searchability is a secondary concern of mine as long as the important text is coherent.

What I see on a few of the Canadian examples that shouldn't be in the lettering field is stuff like ‘(Signature)’. Because lettering is a field shared by all language, for this word it might work in English and French but Spanish uses another word.  

I've had a bit of discussion with the Canadian referees and they want to get all the notes into conformity with the new guidelines but it seems they are only available in English. The first three parts are

The lettering field is a faithful transcript of all the lettering on each face.
Use the exact script, spelling, abbreviations, capitalization, punctuation, layout, and special characters. Do not try to reproduce the exact layout and spacing between characters.

Include the date, imprint, and any small lettering, such as the designer’s and engraver’s names or lettering that is part of the design.

Unfortunately, it then starts talking about mint letter, so there's clearly an issue with copying from the coin guidelines. Nevertheless, a French translation would be appreciated. I think the first two parts work very well but the third seems overkill, since many of those details are elsewhere on the page and may differ between sub-types. The key section for this discussion is the third, which Google translates as

N'essayez pas de reproduire exactement la disposition et l'espacement entre les caractères.

For once, I think I agree with a Google translation.

Hi everyone,

After having an exchange with other referees, we agreed to wait until we are sure what needs to be corrected so we will be doing this work only once.

Before we (Big Mac and I) start any review of all Banknotes for Canada, we would like to have clear instructions from the Numista team in charge of establishing the Guidelines. I suspect the referees and members, who contributed to this catalog in the past, had different views or reasons to have entered the information this way. Before we act, I would like that we all agree on how to do things (not relying on only personal opinion of a couple of members or referees). Members and referees come and go but the Guidelines will be there for good (I think and I hope).

A french translation of the Guidelines 2022 would be also great and appreciated by all french speaking referees around the world since the french version dates back to 2013.

Best regards,

Hello,

Sorry I will write in french, please use the new translate option (first icon on the right upper side of this message).

Je suis d'accord avec Québécois pour attendre des instructions à jour avant de modifier tous les billets du Canada.

J'aimerais bien pouvoir lire en français la nouvelle mouture 2022 du document des Recommandations pour l'édition du catalogue avant de débuter le travail.

J'ai aussi des questions ou besoin de précisions concernant les types de billet (Local / Standard en anglais ou Local / Courant en français).

Je me demande aussi si c'est une bonne idée de mettre les références sur les lignes des années. Malheureusement, il faudra maintenir ceci dans les deux langues. Une description adéquate devrait permettre de bien identifier un billet, non ? Est-ce qu'on a vraiment besoin de répéter tous les numéros de référence qui apparaissent déjà plus haut sur la fiche ? À la limite, une seule référence pour le pays devrait être suffisante sur les lignes d'année. Car avec la possibilité d'ajouter 10 numéros de référence pour un billet, ça va être la folie de tous les suivre sur les lignes d'année !!!

Merci et bonne soirée.

Céline F.

Reference per year line was hinted at to be implemented but this could still take quite some time to be realized.

This would also remove curating such information in two/three different languages.

Are we really going to have to wait however many months it takes for a full French translation of the guidelines before we fix entries like this:

N#230479

Take a look at the reverse lettering and compare it to the note.

5 - 5
• BANK • OF • COMMERCE : EST • 1867 : THE • CANADIAN •
FIVE
CANADIAN BANK NOTE COMPANY LIMITED

The second line is text around a shield, clearly meant to be read in order, just like on a coin. Why not use the new translate option on the guidelines?

That lettering is a spelling mistake. I just submitted a correction request for it.

Expected rejection received. Resubmission made with requested clarification.

Hi again,

N#230479

I think we will need clarification from the Numista team members on this one also. If I read correctly the guidelines, the dots on the reverse of this note should stay.

The lettering field is a faithful transcript of all the lettering on each face.
Use the exact script, spelling, abbreviations, capitalization, punctuation, layout, and special characters. Do not try to reproduce the exact layout and spacing between characters.

Include the date, imprint, and any small lettering, such as the designer’s and engraver’s names or lettering that is part of the design.

Céline F.

And the text should read:

THE • CANADIAN • BANK • OF • COMMERCE : EST • 1867 :

Another test case with the supreme court.

Part of the issue with these guidelines is that they were written with coins in mind.

Hibernia

And the text should read:

THE • CANADIAN • BANK • OF • COMMERCE : EST • 1867 :

 

Another test case with the supreme court.

 

Part of the issue with these guidelines is that they were written with coins in mind.

That's clearly true but the irony here is that, if it were a coin, we'd read around the the edge rather than trying to read left to right.

Indeed.

But even on a coin, we would tend to start reading from the start of a sentence.

I am not banknote expert and this is very old discussion, but did not appearance of new guidelines bring some order into this? https://en.numista.com/help/lettering-obverse-and-reverse-169.html

I've submitted a new request to tidy up

N#330855

linking the request to this discussion and the new guidelines. However, I'm not hopeful given the contradictory nature of the new guidelines. Just look at the second point:

• Use the exact script, spelling, abbreviations, capitalization, punctuation, layout, and special characters. Do not try to reproduce the exact layout and spacing between characters.

Which is it? Use the exact layout or don't reproduce the exact layout? The second is clearly what we want but this again shows how little thought has been put into the guidelines for banknotes.

ceh2019

I've submitted a new request to tidy up

N#330855

linking the request to this discussion and the new guidelines. However, I'm not hopeful given the contradictory nature of the new guidelines. Just look at the second point:

• Use the exact script, spelling, abbreviations, capitalization, punctuation, layout, and special characters. Do not try to reproduce the exact layout and spacing between characters.

Which is it? Use the exact layout or don't reproduce the exact layout? The second is clearly what we want but this again shows how little thought has been put into the guidelines for banknotes.

What is the point of submiting requests if the instructions are still not clear ? The referees won't know what to do with your requests. I'm glad I resigned a couple of months ago. What a mess these 2 referees inherited. I wish them luck and a lot of sleep.

Québécois

 

I'm glad I resigned a couple of months ago. What a mess these 2 referees inherited. I wish them luck and a lot of sleep.

Moi aussi je veux démissioner de cette responsabilité, j'aurai préféré m'occuper des pièces, avec toi, alors si jamais tu as besoin d'aide, penses à moi.

Céline F.

Big Mac

Québécois

 

I'm glad I resigned a couple of months ago. What a mess these 2 referees inherited. I wish them luck and a lot of sleep.

Moi aussi je veux démissioner de cette responsabilité, j'aurai préféré m'occuper des pièces, avec toi, alors si jamais tu as besoin d'aide, penses à moi.

 

Céline F.

Je comprend ta réaction, c'est pas très aidant de lire ce post. Je suis désolé de t'avoir embarqué là-dedans. Tu n'auras pas eu vraiment l'occasion et le temps de faire tes preuves. Je vais aussi prendre une grande pause de Numista cet été afin de recharger mes batteries. Je vais en profiter pour réfléchir à mon implicaton sur Numista. Je trouve que la solidarité et l'aide entre référents n'est plus ce qu'elle était et c'est bien dommage.

On verra à l'automne. En attendant bonne fin de journée.

Tu devras écrire à Jarcek si tu désires vraiment démissioner. Peut-être qu'il trouvera un autre référent pour aider titus17 à redresser cette situation et ne pas abandonner compètement à son sort la partie francophone du catalogue de billets du Canada.

Au plaisir ma chère amie, gardons le contact en privé et on continuera de se voir de temps en temps.

I'm pleased to report that the modifications to

N#330855

have been accepted, so maybe the new guidelines (flawed as they are) have made a difference.

👍

Hello,

I updated the guidelines to remove the contradiction about respecting the layout.

https://en.numista.com/help/lettering-obverse-and-reverse-169.html 

The lettering field is a faithful transcript of all the lettering on each side.

 

• Use the exact spelling, abbreviations, capitalization, punctuation, and special characters.
  • Include the date, imprint, series, serial number, and any small lettering that is part of the design.
  • Transcribe the date, series, and serial number from the featured image. If no image is available, use a common variety. Do not use placeholders such as “[date]”.
  • For punctuation:
    • Use the unicode character that resembles most the symbol used on the banknote.
      • × + ✣ ✠ ☩ ♁ ✤ ⊚ ᐤ ⸰ ⵓ ஃ ✿ ❀ 🏵 ⚜ ⋆ ⁑ • · : ⋮ ∴ ; ⬦ ⬩＊★ ⋆ 🞲 ✶ 🞹 ✽ 🟌 ⁕ ⁑ 🙛 ❧
    • In general, separate punctuation characters by a space from adjacent words for better readability, even if spacing on the banknote appears different:
      • ACOPERIREA ⸰ ACESTEI ⸰ ASIGNATE ⸰ O ⸰ FORME
      • ACOPERIREA⸰ACESTEI⸰ASIGNATE⸰O⸰FORME
         
• Respect the order of the blocks of text on the banknote layout and respect line breaks.
  • Do not use placeholders such as “ || ”, “ | ” or “ / ” to indicate breaks in the text.
  • Do not split blocks of text that are interrupted by design features or other blocks of text.
    • Eine Mark
    • WILL PAY TO THE BEARER
  • Non-standard script directions and layouts should be transcribed in the standard direction (for example, latin script in a vertical layout should be transcribed in the conventional left-to-right direction). Ideographic scripts that have flexible writing directions should be transcribed as depicted on the banknote.
     
• Text blocks that appear multiple times on a given side should be transcribed only once:
  • 50 francs — the legal text appears twice, but should only be transcribed once
  • 1000 Francs — the value “1000” appears numerous times on the obverse, in the background and corners but it should only be transcribed once.

Please let me know if you still have a doubt about this new version of the guidelines.

J'ai accepté plusieurs demandes ce matin mais j'ai une question: Est-ce que les liens externes posent un problème ?

Ce matin, j'avais une demande qui supprime le texte suivant dans le commentaire anglais de ce billet:

The guilloches on the reverse are different shapes for the different cities at which the notes were payable, as shown here.
 

 N#206304

Link anywhere but there 😅

Je ne comprends pas. Peut-être suis-je trop vielle pour faire ce travail.

Quand j'ai posé ma candidature, je voulais seulement travailler avec Québécois mais il a démissionné. Est-ce que je peux démissionner aussi svp ?

Merci.

Céline F.

That revision was mine. If it will help, I can add that text and link to the French comments. Thanks for dealing with the others revisions I put in.