1943 1 Franc Question alignment questions.

Hey everybody, I have attached pictures of something I have scoured around the internet for an answer to, and even couldn't answer it when I was asking some of the most knowledgeable people I know. So here I am. The coin in question is a 1943 1 Franc that was minted from 1942 to 1944.

What I have a question about is the alignment. I have multiple of them, and this one seems to have a 180 degree rotation, which makes it a "medal alignment" instead of a "coin alignment. Has anyone ever heard of or seen this? I know old World coins tend to have some degree of rotation back in the years, but not this much. I put the piece of black tape as a reference on the flip. There is NO mintmark, and no signs of being a fake. Metal composition checks out by weight and everything, so the only thing in question is the alignment.

Thanks all for the help, and if you have resources, that would be awesome so I can check it out.

JW

All of the double-bit axe French coins in my collection are ↑↓. I looked in KM, Schön, and Gadoury (French reference) and none mentioned alignment.

Sometimes rotation errors happen in mints, occasionally helped by employees. I have no idea how easy that error was to make using the dies and presses used for those coins.

Have you checked the weight of the coin to determine the type?

Have you looked at the edge and around the rim carefully to ensure this isn't a post-mint rotation?

By the way, when talking about a listed coin please include the links to the Numista pages.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces18132.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces298.html

Απόσπασμα: "bjherbison"​
​Have you looked at the edge and around the rim carefully to ensure this isn't a post-mint rotation?
​

​

​Out of curiosity, what is a "post-mint rotation?"

Απόσπασμα: "rsirian1"​

Απόσπασμα: "bjherbison"​
​​Have you looked at the edge and around the rim carefully to ensure this isn't a post-mint rotation?
​​
​
​​
​
​

​​Out of curiosity, what is a "post-mint rotation?"

​Edit: I put text in this message the first time--I have no idea where it went.

As already explained, I was thinking of a "magic coin" modification of taking the coin apart and putting it back together.

Απόσπασμα: "rsirian1"​​​Out of curiosity, what is a "post-mint rotation?"

​I also had reservations when I read "post-mint rotation", so I'm curious too.

If you have the coin tap it against a surface to see if it is hollow because several years ago when I was in school learning about World war 2 and in occupied France the teacher said that sometimes the French Jews, French resistance or a spy would sometimes deface a coin to hide things such as messages, illegal items or for agents special equipment or cyanide pills. To avoid it being found by the Germans or Vichy French authorities.

That would explain the post-mint rotation.


Update when I find the source they might have used.

Απόσπασμα: "bjherbison"​All of the double-bit axe French coins in my collection are ↑↓. I looked in KM, Schön, and Gadoury (French reference) and none mentioned alignment.
​
​Sometimes rotation errors happen in mints, occasionally helped by employees. I have no idea how easy that error was to make using the dies and presses used for those coins.
​
​Have you checked the weight of the coin to determine the type?
​
​Have you looked at the edge and around the rim carefully to ensure this isn't a post-mint rotation?
​
​By the way, when talking about a listed coin please include the links to the Numista pages.
​https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces18132.html
​https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces298.html
​

​
Thank you for your reply, and will do about the links next time. Checked the weight, and it's within tolerance of the correct type. I don't see any signs of a seam, as in "post mint rotation", and doesn't sound hollow at all. The rotation is perfect on 180, so I would understand if it was off in more/less than 180, but it's too perfect to be put together that way.

I would imagine the dies would have locators, like the US mint dies do, in that they can't be put in the wrong way into the machine. This thing still drives my curiosity.

Thanks for your reply!

JW

And to those asking what "post mint rotation" is, would be something like a magic coin, or spy coin, that was milled, made hollow, and put back together.

JW

I have one - a hollowed-out France 10 Franc coin ...

Hello
you should try to post it on the french forum

Hello again
i do it....

Απόσπασμα: "ZacUK"​ I have one - a hollowed-out France 10 Franc coin ...
​

​Remarkable looking coin

Thanks - maybe it was one of these meant to be inside, for a magic trick ...

Ok, nice, but this aluminum 1 franc coins was only 23mm x 1.8mm thick.
Extremely unlikely to be anything crafty. shit material, and not much of it to work with.
Most likely a genuine die rotation error.
I am sure the French will have something to say soon.

This is a known error : https://www.cgb.fr/1-franc-francisque-legere-frappe-medaille-1943-paris-f-223-3-var-ttb,v39_1031,a.html

Die rotations seem to be more common for 1940s coins, I own 3 : 2 Francs 1943, 5 Francs 1947B & 10 Francs 1949B

voilà. thank you M. Dalek.
now I will go dump out my 50lb bag of French crap and look for die rotations in the 40s alu pieces.