Move the Andorran Dinar to Exonumia

Hello everyone,

I was researching European currencies and I noticed the Andorran section. I looked further and the Andorran dinar was only used as a currency for commemorative coins. These coins could not be spent at businesses, could not be redeemed at banks, and could not be used to pay public debts. Now that there is an exonumia section, shouldn’t they be moved to exonumia?

Were they officially issued by the Andorran government? If so, I think they class as non-circulating commemoratives. For me, "Fantasy Currency" is something issued privately with no official backing and which has no means of circulating.

Απόσπασμα: "Some_nerd"Now that there is an exonumia section, shouldn’t they be moved to exonumia under “Fantasy Currency”?

Of course not. Exonumia are non officially authorized pieces. The Andorran dinar was only used as a currency for commemorative coins but that doesn't mean they weren't officially authorized.

The Andorran Diner was a non-circulating medal-coin currency unit - so is the Order of Malta's Scudo currency since the 1960's!

Both should be in the main catalogue.

Aidan.

If the minimum for being in the main catalog is being officially issued by a government, then that opens the door for lots of non-circulating "coins".

For example, since 2002 the Shawnee tribal nation has been issuing Commemorative coins. They’re even in the Krause books. However, they have never been legal tender (and I believe that tribal governments don't have the ability to issue currency, but I don't know for sure). Yet these coins are in exonumia and Andorran coins are in the main catalog.

And then there are official mint medals like this. They are commemorative, non-circulating, non-legal tender, and issued by a government. These obviously don’t belong in the coin section, but if you slap on a face value it's allowed on the main catalog?

I agree that “Fantasy Currency” is not the right place for Andorran coins. Maybe add “Official Non-Legal Tender Currency”?

I am reviving this thread now that new guidelines have been published for the catalog. Under the new guidelines, coins are defined as "A rigid piece of material that has a determined value (denomination) within a currency system." Coins of the Andorran Dinar were not in a currency system as they were never legal tender.

Απόσπασμα: "Essor Prof"​​Of course not. Exonumia are non officially authorized pieces.

​Again, under these new guidelines exonumia is defined as "Objects of historical interest or collectable items that resemble or relate to coins and banknotes." There is no comment as to whether or not they are officially authorized.

The Andorran diner (ADD) is a commemorative currency issued in form of coins intended for collectors and without a legal tender value.

The exchange rate was defined (informally) as 100 ESP (0.60 EUR) or 5 FRF (~125 ESP or 0.75 EUR) to one diner. But there is no bank or other authority where visitors to Andorra can change diners for euros. It is only an informal relation. It is not possible to buy anything with diners in Andorra. It is not possible to open an account in diners. It is only an artificial currency to produce commemorative coins.

Tl;dr: Not legal tender. Only for collectors.

Hello.

Unequivocal fantasy, double meter , some fantasies cannot even have their own country. Fortunately, this is not the case here.
Heavy and sometimes strange.
Ivan

We are fighting about if yes or no Micronations should be in the main catalogue when this one obviously belong to Exonumia:

It's not possible to buy anything with diners in Andorra. It's not possible to open an account in diners. It's only an artificial currency to produce commemorative coins.

Απόσπασμα: "Indomini16"​It is not possible to buy anything with diners in Andorra. It is not possible to open an account in diners. It is only an artificial currency to produce commemorative coins.

​But authorized by Andorra itself!

You can't buy anything either with proof coins and non-circulating coins from non-artificial currencies. So what's the difference with the Andorran diners?

Απόσπασμα: "Essor Prof"​You can't buy anything either with proof coins and non-circulating coins from non-artificial currencies. So what's the difference with the Andorran diners?

​Proof coins of Euro are legal tenders in the country were they have been produce meaning that you can pay with a 100€ proof coins in France. Most of shop will reject it because they are not aware of it but I paid few years ago with a 10€ coin in a shop without any question or problems. The only restriction/limitation is you can't pay with a Spanish coin in a French shop. It was the same in Franc with the nice silvers 100 Francs coins, where time to time my mother bring back to home some of these coins working as a cashier in a shop.

They should stay in the coin catalog.
yes non circulating coins aimed at collectors but still official coins made by Andorra, not fantasy pieces

Απόσπασμα: "apuking"​They should stay in the coin catalog.
​yes non circulating coins aimed at collectors but still official coins made by Andorra, not fantasy pieces

​There are actual legal tender coins in Exonumia, so these non legal tender coins should definitely be in Exonumia.

These are just the same as these non circulating coins which probably make up of half of our coin catalogue.
No other than a Niue 2 Dollar year of the dragon coin.

So what about the legal tender coins in Exonumia? Should they then be moved to the main catalogue?

Which coin do you mean?
Can you send a link to one?

Απόσπασμα: "apuking"​Which coin do you mean?
​Can you send a link to one?

​These two, as an example, were both legal tender in two countries:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia53969.html
https:/en.numista.com/catalogue/exonumia237102.html

I do see a difference here, the Andorran pieces are issued by the country itself the same as other non circulating coins from other countries. The country also calling these official coins but meant for colöectors.

the pieces you posted cannot be regarded the same way as the issuing entity is made by a private mint from Trelleborg Sweden.
This token was issued by Stiftelsen S:t Barthélemy – Sverige (The St. Barthélemy Foundation – Sweden) in Trelleborg, which was raising funds for the establishment of a Swedish cultural institution on St. Barthélemy.

Απόσπασμα: "apuking"​I do see a difference here, the Andorran pieces are issued by the country itself the same as other non circulating coins from other countries. The country also calling these official coins but meant for colöectors.
​
​the pieces you posted cannot be regarded the same way as the issuing entity is made by a private mint from Trelleborg Sweden.
​This token was issued by Stiftelsen S:t Barthélemy – Sverige (The St. Barthélemy Foundation – Sweden) in Trelleborg, which was raising funds for the establishment of a Swedish cultural institution on St. Barthélemy.

There is a huge problem here when it come to cataloguing. Or does this seem logic to you;
• Main catalogue: Non legal tender coins.
• Fantady currency, Exonumia: Legal tender coins in two countries.

Is it really a "fantasy currency" if it's legal tender in two countries?
Exonumia sure has improved a lot, but it still feels a little like an "other" category. Non legal tender coins shouldn't be in the main catalogue, that's what Exonumia is for, isn't it? Or should they be catalogue seperately from both? Maybe a section called Collectors items, where non legal coins are put?

However you look at ut, to put legal tender coins in Fantasy currency is just plain wrong. They should at least be moved to Local coinage.

Quote: "apuking"​I do see a difference here, the Andorran pieces are issued by the country itself the same as other non circulating coins from other countries. The country also calling these official coins but meant for colöectors.

​I do agree with you. So if we keep Andorra in the main catalog we need to move all the coins and banknotes made by Micronation in the main catalog because they have been issued by the country itself.

The main point here is, we may need the creation of a new category in the main catalog for this kind of country like: « Commemorative currency” where we can put Niue, Andorra and the others.

Private mint and circulating is by defenition a token.

non circulating coins are shown much hate by many on here but by definition are coins.

the St Barthelemy pieces you have shown from what I read circulated in only 2 or 3 shops for a short time making them local currency Tokens.
they should not be under Exonumia fantasy.

Non circulating coins can already be selected or unselected in our catalog.

as for Micronations I believe if they are a international recognized country then yes we do include them in the coin catalogue.

Απόσπασμα: "apuking"as for Micronations I believe if they are a international recognized country then yes we do include them in the coin catalogue.

As we have the category “​Modern states with limited recognition”, then following your argumentation for Andorra I understand that Micronation fits perfectly to the main catalog.

Απόσπασμα: "apuking"​Non circulating coins can already be selected or unselected in our catalog.

Don’t misunderstand me, I know we can sort coins by type but if the country only make coins for collectors that are not legal tender, then I would put them under a new category “​Territories with only commemorative coins” above the category “​Modern states with limited recognition”

Closing this request as we decided, after some discussion to keep them in the catalogue. It will allow government sanctioned collector currencies in the catalogue, even though they are not technically coins.

Jarcek

Closing this request as we decided, after some discussion to keep them in the catalogue. It will allow government sanctioned collector currencies in the catalogue, even though they are not technically coins.

Good to see that we keep object in the coin catalog that are not technically coins…

We began to receive requests to move some Native American Tribe non legal tenders to coins catalog

Example: N#98746

 

Rationale is based on this thread, but Andorra seems quite different to me than such Tribes.

Just wanted to get your opinion :-)

To be in a coin catalogue, they still need to be normal country, not some fantasy.

Simply because the United States government reneged of their treaty obligations does not make American Indian tribal nations any less sovereign. The only difference between Andorra and these nations is that Spain and France kept their word.

Some_Nerd

Simply because the United States government reneged of their treaty obligations does not make American Indian tribal nations any less sovereign. The only difference between Andorra and these nations is that Spain and France kept their word.

Not sure they are part of the UN, so it is another difference ;-)

Compendium

 

Not sure they are part of the UN, so it is another difference ;-)

Neither is Taiwan, Transnistria or the Cayman Islands, but their coins are in the coin catalog ;-)

Fair enough.

Another difference in my opinion is that Andorra do produce actual money, which conveys some kind of numismatics legitimacy  to their non circulating currency

Compendium

Fair enough.

Another difference in my opinion is that Andorra do produce actual money, which conveys some kind of numismatics legitimacy  to their non circulating currency

This was only after the introduction of the Euro. Dinar denominated coins could not be spent, redeemed at banks or by the government. These were medals with a face value added to appear coin-like.

I see you still disagree with decision of this thread. Personnally I wonder about how you decided to interpret this decision regarding other issuers like Native American Tribes.

I'd love inputs of other peoples as you already made your point, I think :-)

Let’s talk about it in a new thread.

Indomini16

Let’s talk about it in a new thread.

https://en.numista.com/forum/topic128407.html#p1039458