I was asked to look over a friend's late mothers's coin collection. Nothing too interesting, although a nice example of a 1923 half crown.
But there was a large silver coin, good condition dated 1606. The family has German heritage.
From what I can find on the internet, the coin is from Mansfeld. Although I can find examples of similar coins, I cannot find any reference or pictures of this actual coin.
It's a new experience for me to come across a coin that I cannot find reference too. It's certainly silver, and appears genuine to me, not that I am an expert.
Welcome to Numista. Please provide weight and diameter so that others may be better able to help you. The location of the date is the first red flag to me. This may be a replica.
Absolutely, and exactly why weight and diameter among other information is always required to best authenticate a genuine coin. Maybe you cant find it because this "coin" is similar to the Mansfield types but never really existed.
On the horse side, I thought it odd that the first letter to the right of the head seems shadowed. Also the inner circle near the date seems off.
But do people make replicas of unknown coins? I've seen plenty of UK sovereign replicas, but why copy a fairly unknown coin and make seemingly obvious mistakes.
Your welcome. I have searched and cannot find your exact type. Again, similar but not quite there and too many things are off in your example. I will try again when weight is provided and that might give us some clarity.
German thalers aren't my focus however the size and weight seem to be good and the coins look silver. Also the wear on the coins seems to be real, not artificial. After a quick search I did find that different varieties of Mansfeld thaler exist so I wouldn't write it off as a reproduction just yet. Can you take photos of the coin's edge? Is there any writing on it?
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Hello again Paul and thanks for providing that information. I stand by my original observation because I have looked everywhere and cannot find your coin anywhere. I agree with your assessment that it most closely resembles the Mansfeld Thaler but there are far too many differences to be anywhere close to being a genuine example as far as I am concerned. Again the location of the date was the first but not only concern for me as the dates are always on the reverse and on the field and not near the edge as far as I can see. Obverse and reverse of your coin do not match any known specimens either. The only other possibility is that you have a coin unknown to the Numismatic world or that I am missing something altogether. Perhaps a German administrator or referee can better help you with this one. Good luck.
One thing I find interesting, if I look at the coin and then flip it on the vertical axis, I then have to rotate the coin ninety degrees clockwise for correct orientation. Is that normal?
I'm used to coins being either the right way up, or 180 degrees out.
I was hoping there would be some edge lettering, the thalers I'm used to seeing have lettering however those are Austrian and about 100 or 200 years younger than this one, I really don't know what the standard was in 1606. The coins orientation isn't an issue since in 1606 coins were still hand struck if I'm not mistaken so you won't get perfect orientation.
One thing you could do is send the coin in for grading. I'm usually against this and consider it a waste of money but if it turns out to be real the added value would justify the cost of grading. The coins size and weight are right, I don't see any indications of it being a modern reproduction on the coins surface so you might get lucky.
Also try to find out who H. F. was, the initials on the sides of the horseman.
I collect and deal in ancient Roman coin. In case you're looking for affordable ancient coins or need any help with the coins you already have send me a message.
I have no doubt on authenticity, Krause does not list all varieties as there are far too many for coins of Mansfeld.
best to check with someone eho has the Tornau reference.
im moving houses now but I don‘t think I have that book.
Almost all talers of the era have plain edges, in 1606 it was a very rare technology which became common only quite a few years later.
value is not too much I believe. I have sold plenty of Talers from Mansfeld and most in excellent condition, they all sold for the 150 to 450€ mark.
yours also has some initials that somebody engraved on the coin, maybe an ancient relative of yours ;)
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The poster's coin is not findable in CoinArchives or acsearch (or Numista, or NGC). Probably the next place to look is the Kunker archive?
Until someone can find a numismatic reference with this coin, it remains questionable.
And if real, it is likely to be worth more than other contemporary Mansfeld thalers due to its rarity (though also taking into account the remnants of mounting which will detract from its value).
Απόσπασμα: "harryg"Still waiting for authenticity, proof and documentation from those that have no doubt it is in fact authentic.
Although many people have spent time looking for this exact type but were unable to find it, all of the details are consistent with other Mansfeld thalers from this time period. By far the most likely option is that it is an authentic but not well documented type.
Απόσπασμα: "harryg"Still waiting for authenticity, proof and documentation from those that have no doubt it is in fact authentic.
Although many people have spent time looking for this exact type but were unable to find it, all of the details are consistent with other Mansfeld thalers from this time period. By far the most likely option is that it is an authentic but not well documented type.
No, not all the details are consistent although similar. Explain the location of the date for instance. I did not state that it is definitely a replica although that is my judgement until proven otherwise. Others said they had no doubt it is genuine. You claim "most likely genuine" Show us how exactly.
Απόσπασμα: "harryg"No, not all the details are consistent although similar. Explain the location of the date for instance.
I couldn't find this exact type in the references that was looking at, which is why the date isn't in the correct position. I have no doubt that this is just an uncatalogued coin. It has the common characteristics of Mansfeld thalers from this time period. The weight, diameter, orientation, and somewhat circular shape are the same as other Mansfeld thalers from this time period. In addition to that, the rim and edge are consistent with other Mansfeld thalers that I've seen online and in my own collection. Also, there are some features on it like the large die cud and the doubling of some features which is very common on this type of coin. Combined with the even wear and circulated look, I have no doubt that this is an authentic but uncatalogued thaler.
I have many doubts and your explanation about the date location is not satisfactory. Please show an example of ANY Mansfield Thaler with the date in that location.
Απόσπασμα: "harryg"I have many doubts and your explanation about the date location is not satisfactory. Please show an example of ANY Mansfield Thaler with the date in that location.
Απόσπασμα: "harryg"I have many doubts and your explanation about the date location is not satisfactory. Please show an example of ANY Mansfield Thaler with the date in that location.
Ok then, some progress. I am not trying to be difficult but a coin like this is worthy of effort and not just broad statements such as "I have no doubt" or "most likely" genuine. If this in fact the only specimen of this particular coin, unknown to anybody else and not yet documented or catalogued, then it certainly is worthy of some effort.
